Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. Ill never forget a while back in our city when two young Christian college kids were killed, execution style, in a terrible, senseless crime. I might get around to it, at some point. HOWEVER- as is often the case, what we deal with in real life can be quite unlike what the experts say it is. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. Since Jeff S is a nice Calvinist, may I continue to be a mean one? God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. But something has changed in the last number of years. Declarations of faith. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. Sois that what we are saying? *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. G. Campbell Morgan 16. But are *we* the measure of truth? 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Ann. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God Does there need to be a correction? Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. Joel B. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . The Reformed doctrine of salvation is commonly represented by the acrostic TULIP (also known as the five points of Calvinism ): T - total depravity. As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. Everything. Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. I dont see you behaving as a bully. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. 1550-1616), who was not. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . This is one of the few places where that doesnt happen on a regular basis! I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. @ JeffB: Why can we not focus on God and Jesus and what He did for us? Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. And its complicated by the same problem that David came up against (and I quote the Psalm not because Im trying to educated everyone but because it puts it so well): If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. I disagree. Ive become a more capable musician as a result. Also, I use calvinist interchangeably with TULIP believer. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. @ Junkster: I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. For my part, I DO understand why people look at Calvinism and reject it. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? Would you want to answer that one? But I dont think I have to pick. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. Who did he think he was? To me, there is a huge difference. Yesthat could very well be what they mean. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. @ Daisy: They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. He started out not sure where he stood. Might we call what youre describing love? I was open. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. Green 27. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. Roger Olson 23. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. whats wrong with mess anyway? Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. They are part of what it means to be human. Such arrogance!! And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. We studied together, looked at what I think is a really good representation of what I (and my church) believes, and he rejects it. There are a lot of avenues going on here. Or if I make it to the Board of Ordained Ministry in February, Ill share my recording. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! Reformed. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. But please consider what it sounds like to those of us who disagree. 5:11-14 (cf. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. Your voice is missing! Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. @ Daisy: Lin wrote: I think almost all theists answer yes, but its a hard thing to hear for that woman. We are glad that you do. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. He embraced Reformed soteriology after initially subscribing to Arminianism. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. Thanks. Please continue to dialog. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. Do arminians believe in salvation through faith? I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. Pardon me if I show my bias toward breastfeeding and please indulge me a bit. But you are right. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. I liked that. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. debra anderson obituary, producto illicito madlib, inforce aplc vs tlr7,
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